As a result of the Door at the End of the Universe post, an intriguing email discussion took place with a friend.
Via back and forth correspondence, Jack clarified a few viewpoints. Those clarifications seem worth sharing, so here they are.
The friend’s comments are in blue italics; Jack’s responses in plain text (and first person).
I would say atheism comes in various stripes: e.g.,
i) Douglas Adams’ self-styled radical atheism (which meant “don’t ask me if that means I’m agnostic”),
ii) Dawkins’ evangelical atheism,
iii) those people who simply feel that it is not possible for any critically-minded person who has thought about these issues to believe in god(s), and so on.
Agree there are plenty of good-natured atheists (Douglas Adams being a prime example). I would also count Dawkins among the good-natured in respect to his genuine willingness to engage. Adams approaches the question humorously; Dawkins approaches it scientifically; while Dawkins is evangelistic in a sense, it is more in defense of evolution (which is very much under attack). Dawkins does not strike me as acting like a religious zealot, as a number of atheists seem to. The great irony is in atheists acting like those they discredit. I don’t see Adams and Dawkins doing that.
Re, “those people who simply feel that it is not possible for any critically-minded person who has thought about these issues to believe in god(s)”… such a position strikes me as not thought through. There are plenty of explanatory reasons as to why otherwise intelligent and rational individuals end up believing in god.
Those who assume “no one rational could believe in god” overemphasize their own experience and their own rationality, in my opinion. Otherwise rational people find cause to believe many strange things for practical reasons that suit them on a day-to-day basis. This does not make them crazy or stupid by default, only philosophically inconsistent on a level that may or may not matter in the big scheme of things.
I don’t feel agnostic is the most appropriate philosophical stance because I think the evidence leans more one way than the other. In this respect, to be agnostic about the existence of god is comparable, I think, to being agnostic about evolution vs. creationism.
Is it not more logical for a person to call himself an atheist, but to be absolutely rigorous to say that the non existence of g/God was an operating hypothesis, pending falsification by his/her/its appearance. (This would be non-inconsistent with Hume’s powerful critique on miracles, if you are familiar with it.)
Re, more logical for a person to call himself an atheist… perhaps this comes down to personal preference. At the end of the day I would rather just say “I have no idea,” because I think this answer is more honest, more technically correct, and more personally desirable from the standpoint of trickle-down effects.
An individual who is willing to place uncertainty at the heart of their belief structure is more likely to stay open to unexpected possibilities, in my view. An individual who chooses to embrace certainty where it does not fully exist, on the other hand, may be more susceptible to embracing unwarranted certainty in other areas of life. I would rather stay closer to what I perceive as true and highlight my own fallibility in recognizing that I really don’t know either way.
With that said, it’s understood that a lot of these issues might be considered nitpicking in the extreme. My practical and pragmatic views are in most ways almost indistinguishable from a general atheist position. I just prefer the more honest “I don’t know.” I am certainly willing and desirous of assuming the full implications of no god, that is to say, “no message.” But at the same time, I also still sometimes wonder “Why is there something rather than nothing.” I will most likely never know the answer to this question. But it is still an interesting question, which further generates impulse in me to say “I don’ t know” as opposed to “I will assume there is no creator.”
p.s. Just to make clear, I have zero doubt evolution is true; the scientific evidence in support of evolution is compelling, beautiful, and beyond overwhelming.
I am not sure you are leaving room for if such a person is making what he/she perceives to be his/her most reasonable best guess?
Re, reasonable best guesses… I guess my attitude would be, “why guess when you don’t have to guess.” There are certain instances in life — many instances actually — where we have to make decisions based on imperfect information. But why make an uninformed decision when no one is asking you to? I guess one of the things I have found value in is the idea of embracing uncertainty as a fundamental principle.
People are free to make their best guess of course. And if I were forced to speculate, I would probably speculate that whatever is behind the door is so far removed from the bounds of understanding that human efforts to comprehend would be futile even if the door were opened. I suspect we are less important in the big scheme of things than the bacteria beneath an elephant’s toenail. But I would much rather say “I don’t know” than to guess where I don’t have to.
I think coming to a provisional view that there is no meaning is so unpalatable that only people who are extremely open-minded are going to get there – and such a person is just the last kind of individual to be dogmatic.
People whose views I’ve encountered who’ve leaned to this view – Feynman, Camus, et al. – have been quite the contrary. In this light, I would have thought a dogmatic nihilist would be more a theoretical concept – unless we’re dealing with someone who’s thoroughly depressed!
Re, “coming to a provisional view that there is no meaning”… well, that is more or less my view. I think there is no meta-meaning, thus creating a vacuum in which we are free to create our own. I would wholly agree too that Feynman, Camus et al are not dogmatic in respect to meta-level things. That is one reason I like them so much (and why I quoted Feynman specifically).
It’s hard to believe, but dogmatic nihilists are out there. I have run into them repeatedly. They tend to be philosophically obtuse individuals who do not see the hypocrisy in rejecting all systems of truth as meaningless, then unknowingly arguing from a standpoint of absolute truth that their particular view on whatever subject is absolute, i.e., transcending the subjective. In a very real way, these individuals tend to not actually realize the implications of what they are saying.
What do you think of the idea that G/god is like the aether? It is a concept that served an intellectual purpose once, but in light of modern understanding should be dispensed with?
I guess I would say, how do we know God is like the aether? How can we say anything intelligent about God at all, except in respect to natural laws regarding the world and universe we have inhabited?
I think it is hard to compartmentalize the “I have no idea” around certain religions and not others. Imagine you went to Mars and found the Martians all worshipping their God…would you be so open-minded as to the possibility of their beliefs being valid, too?
We can say, strictly speaking, we have no idea if Horus exists, but I am willing to make a guess. (This is why religious zealots can’t stand cultural relativism. It undermines the superior position they would fain assume).
I would argue that varying subjects have varying degrees of common ground, and the subject that has the most common ground for all of us — including martians — is natural laws. As long as they reside in our universe, even far-flung alien civilizations would operate under the same laws of physics.
And thus, unless the martians had found some way to prove otherwise, I would no more feel the need to accept their religion as (possibly) true versus, say, Christianity or Islam.
To put it another way… I believe with asymptotic certainty that evolution is true and the world’s popular religions are false. Available evidence strongly supports the notion that whoever or whatever set off the great chain of events did so many billions of years ago, and has shown no observable sign of intervening since. (From a probabilistic standpoint, our reality behaves exactly as it would, and should, were it wound up like a watch and then left to its own devices.)
This means that all popular religions are likely to be false, even alien ones, because religion tends to claim special favor or special dispensation from a creator within the span of mortal time (the evidence for which is grossly lacking).
Or even more succinctly: From a Popperian standpoint, religious claims can be falsified; religious logic can be tested. Therefore all religions lacking scientific proof of favor or dispensation can be dismissed as false.
But this still deals with negatives (shooting down unjustifiable / irrational claims). It does not bridge the gap to making a positive statement about reality, i.e., “I know what is behind the door.” We can know what is justifiably dismissable as silly, but we cannot know that which is permanently beyond us. I believe this an important point.